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Doing more work walking from the pole to the equator

Дата публикации: 16-10-2026 13:49:27



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  • Level: High School 
  • Thread starter Thread starter peanutaxis
  • Start date Start date Oct 10, 2026
peanutaxis
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More work than what? Walking in the other direction? If this were true, what do you think would happen to the oceans?

Google "geoid",

DaveC426913
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As pbuk alludes to: the shape of the Earth is a product of those very same forces, so it is not "uphill" walking from pole to equator.

Think about walking along the shore of the ocean. Everywhere you go is sea level, even if you are farther from the centre of the Earth. Ans even if you are rotating water.

Sea level tells you where all points are equal.

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DaveC426913
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Basically, a good problem can be made out of this. We just need to define the law of motion along the meridian. A person walking along the meridian is acted upon by two forces: gravity ##\boldsymbol G## and the Earth's reaction force ##\boldsymbol R##. The left-hand side of the equation ##m\boldsymbol a=\boldsymbol G+\boldsymbol R## is known to us, since we consider the law of motion to be given.
(The gravitational force and the Earth's rotation are, of course, also known. )

Now we need to determine the work done by which force and in which reference frame we wish to calculate. :)

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Regarding work required for the specified walk you would indeed need to provide work to gain rotational energy.

If a person of mass ##m## walks from the pole to the equator at distance ##R## from the center of the Earth rotating with angular speed ##\omega##, then a good approximation to the work required is simply ##E_m##, the rotational energy of that person, that is,
$$W \approx E_m= \tfrac{1}{2}mR^2 \omega^2.$$
If ##m## becomes significant relative to the mass of the Earth, ##M##, then a more accurate expression using conservation of angular momentum (effectively slowing the Earth's rotation ever so slightly over the walk) and assuming spherical Earth would be
$$\begin{align*}W &= \frac{2}{2+5\frac{m}{M}} E_m \\ &\approx (1-\frac{5m}{2M}) E_m .\end{align*}$$
Note that ##E_m## is same value as before, still based on ##\omega## from when starting at the pole.

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Suppose you are standing on a skateboard and you propel yourself across the room by pushing on the wall with enough force to acquire 200 J of kinetic energy.

Did the wall do 200 J of work on you?

Did your body expend 200 J of energy?

Does this all add up for you?

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DaveC426913
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Again though, remember: if you are at sea level the whole time, these forces do not come into play.

Every molecule of water is subject to the same forces you are. If it did take took work to navigate from the pole to the equator, then sea water would pool at the poles.

The Mississippi's mouth is farther from the centre of the Earth than its headwaters (by about 3 miles), and yet the water still flows "downhill" to the Gulf of Mexico.

The global sea level

tells you where the equipotential surface is.

(Actually I'm not sure if Coriolis Foce is likewise exempt.)

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In the inertial frame, apply conservation of angular momentum with Earth and a small mass ##m## first at the pole P and then at the equator E, co-rotating with the Earth
$$I_p \omega_p = I_e \omega_e = (I_p + m R^2) \omega_e ,$$
which implies
$$\omega_e = \frac{I_p}{I_e}\omega_p ,$$
and compare the rotational energies in the two situations
$$\tfrac{1}{2}I_p \omega_p^2 = \tfrac{1}{2}I_e \omega_e^2 + W ,$$
which implies
$$ W = \frac{I_p}{I_p + mR^2} \tfrac{1}{2} m R^2 \omega_p^2 .$$
Since ##W## is positive I conclude work must be provided to gained by move ##m## from the pole to co-rotating at equator. (Edit: I placed W on the right side, so if W is positive it must of course mean the opposite of what I wrote earlier. But I guess the discussion right now is not so much about the sign, but that it is non-zero?).

One could argue that moving ##m## from the pole to equator also need to include linear momentum, but if we split the mass into four parts, two at each pole, and let these follow symmetric paths to keep the center of mass of these four parts to coincide with the center of the Earth at all times, then there should be no need to include conservation of linear momentum.

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Is rotational energy the only thing that has changed?

Did you see the advice I gave to the OP:

?
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In the co-rotating frame:
- Coriolis Force is perpendicular to velocity so it's not doing any work.
- The lateral force from the Earth that balances the Coriolis Force to keep you on a meridian is also perpendicular to velocity so it's not doing any work.

In the inertial frame:
- Coriolis Force doesn't exist.
- The lateral force from the Earth is doing positive or negative work to increase or decrease the kinetic energy due to the tangential motion.

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I was refering to the geopotential (i.e. gravity plus centrifugal), but from the inertial frame. Surely everyone no matter what frame they are in must agree that the mass, if at rests at any point on the geoid must be at same geopotential level? And if so, it should be possible (and easy) to apply conservation of momentum and calculate "system" energies?

But let's say the co-rotating frame is used to model the situation, then how does one then easily include conservation of linear/angular momentum and energy, which only really applies in inertial frames, to conclude there is no total energy difference between start and stop positions?

I mean, assume the small mass is a spherical uniform marble rolling (or even a point-like mass slipping) frictionless on the geoid surface, i.e. the surface contact forces are always orthogonal to both surfaces. After the marble has been given its initial (lets say very small impulsive) roll in any direct it will in the co-rotating frame have a non-zero speed in a direction perpendicular to the rotation axis and thus experience a Coriolis (and very small Euler) force giving the marbles initial south-bound roll an

easterly westerly direction if uncountered. So to roll along a meridian another force must counter the these forces, e.g. from a rail along the meridian contacting the marble just right, and the reaction force on this rail will in turn make Earth slow a tiny bit. After the marble stop its roll at the equator it has received zero net work (apart from the two not quite cancelling start and stop impulses), yet the whole frame is now rotating a tiny bit slower indicating that some energy has been lost. So, as modelled in a co-rotating frame, how does one easily account for this energy difference and conclude their is no overall change in energy?
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There is no centrifugal potential in the inertial frame.
Energy conservation still applies in a uniformly rotating frame, if the centrifugal potential is taken into account. So if start and stop have the same geopotential (gravity plus centrifugal), then there's no net change of potential energy. If start and stop speeds are also the same then there is no net energy change.

To treat the rest frame of the planet as uniformly rotating, you obviously have to assume that the planet is much more massive than the mass you are moving around on it.

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I can see now that I both used the property that any mass at rest on the geoid in the rotating frame by definition have same potential and then handwavingly used this property in the inertial frame without properly separating the centrifugal term out as kinetic energy in the inertial frame. Thus I had cake and was trying to eat it too, which obviously is a no-go since this is physics and not world politics.

However, I would still like to see or do an inertial "geoid-free" model, but it seems tricky to establish a simple inertial model simple that "independently" captures the same effect as the geoid. Perhaps an ellipsoidal Earth using only the J2 potential would do the trick.

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The geoid as a shape is still present in the inertial frame, you just cannot use it as the eqipotential surface. But it is still true, that pure-gravity-vector minus centripetal-froce-towards-spin-axis-vector is perpendicular to the geoid surface everywhere on the surface. Thus it can neither accelerate nor brake things on that geoid surface.

So if you had a friction-less rail in an evacuated tunnel along a great circle containing both poles, and you give a cart (no engine) placed on it a push, then it would travel at constant speed along the north-south direction, and only the east-west component would vary in the inertial frame, as the planet is doing positive or negative work on it via the lateral rail forces. But the cart is completely passive and doesn't need to provide any energy.

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My comment has nothing to do with dissipative forces. It has to do with you specifying a constant distance ##R## from the center of the earth. If ##R## is the equatorial radius then at the pole it will be about 20 km in the air. If ##R## is the polar radius then at the equator it will be about 20 km underground.

In the earth centered inertial frame a mass at the equator has both a higher KE and a higher gravitational PE than the same mass at the pole. So why doesn’t ocean water flow to the poles?

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